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Conversations with the Dead: Real or Imagination?

Posted on 31 July 2023, 19:18

Of the 350 or so blogs I have written over the past 14 years, only two or three have involved Electronic Voice Phenomena (EVP), or as it is more broadly categorized today Instrumental Trans Communication (ITC).  I wasn’t especially impressed with the communication as nearly all I had come across offered little more than a few words or some fragmentary sentences that I likened to finding faces or figures in the clouds. The exceptions have been several books by Anabela Cardoso which have offered more complete and understandable messages.  (See my interview with Dr. Cardoso in the archives for December 4, 2017)

My latest read in this field is Friedel’s Conversations with the Dead, co-authored by Cardoso and Anders Leopold and recently published by White Crow Books.  As the sub-title states, it is “the fascinating story of Friedrich Jűrgenson, (below) pioneer of EVP.”  The original book was authored by Leopold and published in Sweden in 2014. Cardoso has translated and edited it into English.


Leopold was a friend of Jűrgenson’s.  “We remained close friends until October 15, 1987, when he went over to the other side, to what he called ‘life in the fourth dimension’,” Leopold writes in the introduction, describing Jűrgenson as a man of immense charisma and joy of life and the discoverer of EVP – electronically mediated contacts with another dimension of life via tape recorder and radio. He goes on to explain that ITC go beyond EVP by including contacts via computers, TV and telephone.

“A man of great culture and artistic value, an atheist cherished by two popes, Friedel, as he was affectionally known, unwittingly discovered the electronic voices of the dead in a remote forest in Sweden…,” Cardoso states in the preface of the book. Jűrgenson, who was born in Odessa, Russia in 1903, gained a reputation as an opera singer. artist, and film producer. He is said to have spoken eight languages, five fluently. He was commissioned by the Vatican to do art work and filming in Pompeii and portraits of two popes. 

Jűrgenson’s interest in EVP began in 1959 while attempting to record birdsongs in the forest.  Instead of birdsong, he recorded voices, one of them being that of his deceased mother.  He then began experimenting and recording other voices, but he didn’t go public with it until calling a press conference on June 15, 1963.  The book includes the reports of several of the journalists attending that press conference. The tapes were not played for the journalists; they reported only what Jűrgenson told them.  Quoting parts of their reports might best summarize the phenomenon as Jűrgenson explained it to them.

Anne-Marie Ehrenkrona, said to be one of Sweden’s most famous writers, wrote an objective report based on what Jűrgenson reported, including:

“The [tapes] have nothing whatsoever to do with the occult.”

“The voices intervene in the regular programs – in opera arias, popular songs, speeches of messages – by changing the text, simply flushing over the real program.”

“To break away from the ordinary speech more easily, the voices use a mixed language and ungrammatical forms – German articles, for example, do not matter.”

“The contact is made possible by the radio waves, which they, the communicators, thanks to a higher frequency, amplify or throw away. Or more transcendently put: the radio waves pave the way for vibrations from a higher plane.”

“Jűrgenson’s ‘space’ theory is that the voices want to make our lives more pleasant by eliminating the fear of death, our great anxiety, and to teach us to live harmoniously in the present.”

Ivan Bratt, a Swedish newspaper reporter, was more skeptical and a little cynical in his report but still respectful of Jűrgenson.  He wrote, in part:

“Jűrgenson reported with passionate insight about his contacts with friends from the other side of the grave. His eagerness to convince his audience could not be mistaken, nor his absolute conviction that he is right.”

“The language the dead use in their messages is a kind of polyglot speech in which most European languages are represented.”

“The dead have ‘radar’ and can use it to see us walking around on the Earth. They can also see and hear what we think and feel. With this radar, they send their messages carried through radio waves to Jűrgenson’s radio…”

“No sorrow and no pain, no worries but only joy and mirth, this is life in the fourth dimension.” (seemingly cynically stated)

“Thus, the information provided at the famous press conference was rather hard to digest and as previously mentioned, it was received with obvious skepticism. The impression remains that there must be something there, but the big question is what is it? Maybe we will eventually get the answer, maybe not.”

Rune Moberg, said to be one of the most distinguished members of the Swedish media, reported:

“The dead, explained Jűrgenson, have not the same kind of consciousness as we do, and not the same conceptual realm. What we think is pointless can have a deep meaning for them.”

“God help me.  I began to believe.  And it felt good. Imagine that you do not die when you die. And the spirits seem to be well wherever they are staying. They sing and joke.”

“I do not know what to believe. However, I know what I should not believe. I do not think Friedrich Jűrgenson is a deliberate hoax.”

Jűrgenson’s research was not without considerable scientific observation and validation.  Professor Hans Bender, a German psychologist of the University of Freiburg, Dr. Friedbert Karger of the Max Planck Institute in Munich, Dr. John Bjoerkhem, a pioneer in Swedish parapsychology, and other scientists and scholars studied his work.

A second press conference took place on June 12, 1964, shortly after the release of Jűrgenson’s book, The Voices from Space. Tapes were played for the 40 or so journalists and photographers in attendance. “During the evening they listened to various recordings and became immediately convinced that Friedel had undoubtedly discovered a revolutionary opportunity for communicating with, as Claude (Thorlin, another EVP experimenter) put it, an ‘extraterrestrial’ living area,” Leopold wrote, further commenting that Jűrgenson accomplished what he had hoped for: interest, curiosity, commitment and utter shock.”

Leopold further noted that Jűrgenson received ‘huge” publicity, although many of the journalists reported it with a certain skepticism. “But at the same time, they could not hide from the inexplicable experience at Friedel’s house along with a group of colleagues and witnesses who claimed to hear voices from close relatives, dead for several years.”

It is difficult for the reader to fully appreciate the communication as Leopold continually mentions or quotes the indistinct, soft, garbled and fragmentary nature of the voices, often left to the interpretation of the listener. Nearly all the messages come across as gobbledygook, few of them making any sense, although Jűrgenson seems to have been able to interpret many of them, due in part to his ability to speak many languages and to his finely tuned musical ears in addition to what seems to have been clairvoyant abilities. Leopold states that there are about two-thousand recordings in Jűrgenson’s collection, about a third of the total “characterized by clear text and unmistakable communications that can be understood without any doubt by all who possess normal hearing.”  Nevertheless, the examples provided in the book will not likely help the non-believer move from a skeptical perch or even the deeply religious person give up his or her idea of heaven and hell.  One of the communicators was said to be Hitler and the only thing he had to say that made sense to me was that “we lived in the deepest confusion.”

A very interesting chapter has to do with Jűrgenson’s art work and film-making in Pompeii and his talks with Pope Paul VI about the EVP voices and other matters. In his conversations with Jurgenson, the pope is quoted: “We are following your research with great interest. We have also our own research on this topic. This is not contrary to the Church. We know that between death and resurrection there is another sphere of existence, a post-Earthly existence…We have an open mind on all issues that are not contrary to the teachings of Christ.”

Although he had no doubt about the honesty and integrity of Jűrgenson, author Leopold struggled to reconcile the gibberish he could hear with the profound interpretations by Jűrgenson.  Before writing the book in 2014, he began his own experimentations with EVP. “On Friday, September 7, 2012, I received a greeting from my wife Mona who passed away on July 15, 2010,” he explains. “I identified the voice immediately but took several safety precautions straightaway to avoid the worst trap: self-suggestion and wishful thinking. For me, there is no doubt that the voice belongs to Mona. It is unbelievable and it hit me very hard when I heard her.”

Leopold quotes Dr. Nils-Olof Jacobson (1937-2017), a psychiatrist who wrote extensively on the subject matter: “We can speculate about many explanations. In some cases, we can imagine psychokinesis, as how we unconsciously produce this phenomenon. But that is no explanation, rather only a label we put on something we do not understand. Perhaps we, by an unknown form of psychokinesis, can create a kind of ‘phantoms,’ which then live their own lives. Some of these stories are in the esoteric literature. Everyone must decide whether these explanations seem reasonable and adequate. Maybe ‘aliens’ are involved. Maybe there are parallel worlds. Maybe there is life after death. Maybe everything is connected in the universe, beyond space and time limits. We easily believe that the part of the reality we see is the only reality.”  According to Cardoso, Jacobson supported the life after death explanation over the others. 

Michael Tymn is the author of The Afterlife Revealed: What Happens After We Die, Resurrecting Leonora Piper: How Science Discovered the Afterlife, and Dead Men Talking: Afterlife Communication from World War I.
His latest book, No One Really Dies: 25 Reasons to Believe in an Afterlife is published by White Crow books.

Next blog post:  August 14


There’s another good link to ITC info here if anyone’s interested

Mark Harrison, Wed 16 Aug, 13:59

Dear Kevin A.

You said: “Mrs. Anabela does not say that a large part of the message is lost and does not arrive, making the audios seem incoherent and fragmented.”

I do not say that because it has rarely happened in my own communications – mostly Direct Radio Voices and only some EVP. I have received thousands of voices, mostly DRV, and although some are difficult to understand, many more are fully understandable.
There are samples of the voices I received at:

I published a few messages only but there is also a CD with many more at the ITC Journal website:

And if it is true that sometimes the messages we receive through ITC are distorted, the Technician, the high entity who directed and instructed the contacts in Luxembourg, most of them of full intelligibility, informed in this regard: “What you receive from our reality are mostly distorted radio signals, which for this reason are frequently misinterpreted. It is up to the science of tomorrow to develop receiving devices, above all codes for translation into your language, like the set theory and the symbolic logic in mathematics have done already. It is very important and right that antennas of hundreds of meters’ diameter are built on traces of the radio signals from the universe. It might perhaps be still more important that minimum-size devices be invented in which 5-dimensional field impulses could be registered, possibly directly and not only via the detour over the nerves of the animals or of men or rabbits. We could draw some hope from the fact that the human brain in respect of (the) receiving technique appears to have the first possibilities. This could be pioneering” (Senkowski, Instrumentelle TransKomunikation, 2000, p. 304).

anabela cardoso, Tue 15 Aug, 17:28

Frequently in communication via mediums, discarnates say:‘The power is going: I must stop.’” (pg. 37)

And frequently in ITC (which may allow for dialogues) the communicator says: “Energy is going. I must stop.”

In my opinion, the question is: which kind of energy? I don’t know… Better said, I’m not sure because it can be different and perhaps simultaneous things.

Thanks Mike Tymn.

Anabela Mourato Cardoso, Mon 14 Aug, 19:08

Thanks Bill Ingle, for your wise and inspiring thoughts.

It is perhaps unbelievable to some but I have not yet read the Seth material. And this is due to my out of the paranormal background until ITC happened to me. However, your comments have compelled me to order Seth Speaks. I will read it with great pleasure and interest and I’m sure I will learn a lot. Thank you!

Anabela Mourato Cardoso, Mon 14 Aug, 18:46

“mediumship” I mean any form of communication with deceased people or beings

Thanks Jon, language matters. Unfortunately, so far, we have no other reliable medium of communication. And language is often mediocre as a vehicle.

All the best.

Dr. Anabela Mourato Cardoso, Mon 14 Aug, 18:31

I agree with you Michael that the written evidence and research on Leslie Flint is very lacking and hard to find. Even the SPR don’t seem to have any on their website and the best they can do is offer a link to Michael Prescott’s Blog who has covered Flint in a few of his Blog articles and remains still unsure of Flints authenticity which is understandable. I can’t speak from firsthand experience as I never sat with him so most of my reasoning has been down to logic and gut feeling. Saying that there are still a few things that don’t add up so no doubt the sceptic in me will always be needle picking.
Just call me the ‘link man’ Bruce and a nice Australian beer would go down a treat I’m sure. On a lighter note I recently read on an article on the website I’m about to link to (yes another one wink ) about some flights in the US getting strange noises on the intercom system all through the flight and I think American Airlines might have been one of the airlines involved. The sounds sounded of human origin and have a slight resemblance to someone stuck in the aircraft toilet for the whole flight with a bad case of constipation. Whether the intercom system had been hacked into or something more weird was going on who knows but I was in stitches listening to it. Here’s the link to the website which also has some good EVP?ITC articles and a mention of Anabela’s book to. He also has some very good articles on mediumship.

Mark Harrison, Mon 14 Aug, 11:40

Bill, Kevin and all,
Bill, thanks for the links - they were very interesting. Hereward was a real character.
Instrumental Communication with the Spirit world.
This is at page 155

Kevin, I would think that an EVP would capture the accent and language well. Jon uses medium in a general sense (EVP is a medium of communication) while I would use medium in a specific term for a person. Both are correct. The differences in our frames of reference would emerge in discussions, after awhile. For someone with Spanish this would cause confusion as you need to know the frames of reference. My point is that an EVP may be more accurate (the old discussion that the medium acts as an imperfect translator) than a medium.
I used to talk to trade groups via a translator and often told jokes. The translator would not understand the joke (different experience) but the audience would laugh as they understood the joke.

I believe that our existence continues and more importantly our skill set transfers in to a new environment.

This has been a very enjoyable article from Michael. Looking forward to his new article and our discussions. I also owe Mark a beer for a great link. I am not sure if the beer can be swapped for a spirit without confusion.

Bruce Williams, Mon 14 Aug, 05:04

I’m reading White Crow’s recent release, “The Case for Possession,” by Cynthia Pettiward.  Just came upon an interesting comment by Pettiward that seemingly applies to EVP/ITC as well as mediumship: 

“...discarnates who have progressed to the next sphere find themselves thinking much faster than we do. This explains another difficulty in communication, for the discarnate has to slow down his swiftly moving thoughts to a tempo that can be comprehensible to our relatively sluggish brains, to ‘change down’ his rate of vibration. Discarnates speak as if they felt ‘stifled’; they describe their progress when their speed has been slowed down as like trying to swim through treacle; they tire easily, like men carrying heavy loads or climbing mountains without oxygen, and the power that needs to be brought into play to achieve this tranforming process is readily used up. Frequently in communication via mediums, discarnates say:‘The power is going: I must stop.’” (pg. 37)

Michael Tymn, Mon 14 Aug, 04:14


When I say “mediumship” I mean any form of communication with deceased people or beings.

Jon, Sun 13 Aug, 09:54

Once again thank you for this fascinating article Mr. Tymn.

I have read all the comments, without a doubt the great activity and effort of all the participants to contribute to this topic is noticeable.

In the previous blog post, Mr Williams gave us different observations of language and his theory of how they can influence communication from beyond, is something that we could apply to this phenomenon and because it is difficult to understand what they are saying and decipher the language. message, without a guide or a dictionary it would be difficult.

To this we can add that many of the electronic voice phenomena lack the characteristics of the voice on the physical side, which was evident to me when listening to the audios, for example one that was recorded in the Diputación de la ciudad de Granada in Spain. For our part it is difficult to understand what they are saying and for theirs to be able to convey their words and ideas, these phenomena lack the base sound produced by the air when we speak on this side, since they do not have this air it makes them very difficult to modulate words, obviously they try through white noise but we must remember that this is nothing like the vocal cords, the only means they had and knew to speak, so you must once again learn another way of expressing yourself. All this makes communication very difficult and for this reason, Mrs. Anabela does not say that a large part of the message is lost and does not arrive, making the audios seem incoherent and fragmented.

I see that you have cited the case of Seth, I am reading his first book and he clearly makes it very clear to us how difficult his communication is, even for an advanced soul like him and that is why he had to prepare Jane for many years, he tells us that he must send your consciousness to our physical reality, which is a learning process to achieve it, we can conclude that for a soul that recently arrived at that side where there is no time or space with a lot of confusion, without vocal cords, where thought shapes everything, it must get used to it again and devise a way to communicate with our reality if you want to send a message.

Another factor may be our technology and the issue of electromagnetism that can generate interference, from what I have heard from the Hepta research group in Spain this can generate false positives, for which there must be certain protocols to avoid electromagnetic wave interference.

The observations of Mr. Oliver and Mr. Tymn certainly make us reflect on absolute security, personally it is what I look for, that absolute security is what for me would give meaning to life and would confirm my idea that we come to experience, without a Survival for me, life totally loses its value and meaning, if there is nothing else for so many efforts such as acquiring knowledge, so many difficulties, years in the same routine, appreciating relationships and even the relationship with good and evil, without consequences any actor loses its value. For me, in the end, none of that would matter, what is the point of living 90 years or 5? In the end, it is irrelevant if it is not remembered.

In my case, an afterlife encourages me to live, that no matter how many things happen there will be a better place where I can reflect on living and share a new experience with many souls, where I will meet again with those who I lived on earth even if they are not exactly the same, where I can forget the bad as there is no pain or suffering, I will continue to exist as another me because it is very clear that even though we change there is an eternal essence. If necessary, I prefer a future existence as a “fire of the mind” than oblivion.

In addition, as Mr. Tymn says, not everyone wakes up in an idealized afterlife, Seth also makes that very clear to us, the doubt remains but not the one that for me is the most terrifying, that small doubt of where we will wake up continues to be a good dissociative to choose to leave the physical world, forcing our transit could have many unintended consequences.

Kevin A., Sat 12 Aug, 23:25

you don’t delve into the other forms of mediumship as much as EVP/ITC.

Yes dear Jon, you are right. But I would not call them “the other forms of mediumship” because I don’t call EVP/ITC mediumship. I really do not know what to call it, even Professor Senkowski, the person in the world who knew most about ITC, was not sure of what it really was. I believe I have told you that David Fontana asked me to ask my communicators what was the reason why some people get results and others don’t. I did ask and they replied “It depends on us”. So, there we are…

Conversely, the great figure known as “the Technician” that directed the Luxemboug contacts, asserted that “a pure mind and a pure heart” are important requisites for the contacts with the next dimension. 

Going back to mediumship, I do not delve into it because if I did I would have no time for anything else and certainly not for ITC which is very time-consuming.

Speaking about Flint, to my knowledge Donald West was the researcher who questioned Flint’s genuiness although he did not fully dismiss it. But he was not satisfied with the research conditions from Flint’s side (Fontana, 2005, p. 233-236).

Anabela Cardoso, Sat 12 Aug, 18:29


I read your _Electronic Voices_ with interest.

What you say above: “ is a matter of harmonious liaison between the communicator/s, the Earth operator and his/her equipment” is consistent with my own limited understanding.

When I imagine greatly improved EVC/ITC, then, it would require an improved “harmonious liaison—improvement on the part of communicators, “earth operators” _and_ “his/her equipment.”

I’ve been an enthusiast of the teachings of Seth, channeled by Jane Roberts, since 1982. While meditating for the first time, I perceived (with my “mind’s eye”) a persistent, full-color image of the cover of _Seth Speaks_. This turned out to be an actual book.  I acquired it, read it, then all other books dictated by Seth in print at that time. Seth included exercises in his books to validate his teachings and one exercise in particular—Practice Element 1. in _The “Unknown” Reality, Volume One—proved especially powerful.

Owing to its nature, no channeling can ever be completely distortion free (something Seth acknowledged).

Even so, I believe the material is of higher quality than most channeled information, owing to a situation not dissimilar from your ITC explanation, even if no equipment was involved.

The “communicator” (Seth) was not a recently deceased human, instead referring to himself as an “energy personality essence, no longer focused focused in physical matter” (from Chapter 1 in _Seth Speaks_).

The “operators” were Jane Roberts, in trance, and her husband Rob, who recorded Seth’s words using his own unique shorthand system.  Both had a particular pre-existing inner relationship with Seth—a relationship quite different from relationships between those of, say, a traditional evidential medium and any particular “spirit” they may be in contact with.

In addition, Seth’s teachings concern the nature of physical reality (short version: Each person creates their own unique physical continuum; these are “coordinated” telepathically—thus two people sitting in the same room create two unique versions of the room and everything in it, agreeing unconsciously on details such as size, color, etc. of items in the room.)

As someone who values the Seth material, when I imagine improvements to equipment used in ITC, I must take this into account.

I wouldn’t call myself a Seth diehard or fanatic; I’m familiar with other teachings. I’ve also actively experimented for many years, singly and with others, in the areas of mediumship and channeling.

I’m fully convinced of the existence of an “afterlife” thanks to many undeniable experiences, but as all of these were subjective in nature (less so, perhaps, in shared experiences), I can offer no proof to anyone else (as most think of “proof”).

So EVC/ITC is of interest to me just from that standpoint alone—“objectifying” the subjective seems like a noble pursuit.

I believe significant changes are in the works regarding everyday human consciousness but don’t expect these to begin to become more “visible” in a mass way for some decades, and not in all “probable futures” (per Seth, there is no such thing as a single future).

As these will include ITC “operators,” ITC will change, too.

At the moment we live in the twilight of a waning age, one in which a greater understanding exists primarily on “the fringe” in terms of “official” understanding.

Some day, some of us may look back upon this present era with a mixture of fondness and wonder, knowing we exist within it in so called “past lives.”

Bill Ingle, Sat 12 Aug, 15:04


I imagine what Flint meant was, many people visited him over the years and tried different experiments, but the only “official” body would have probably been the SPR, and those people don’t necessarily write up their experiences, and even if they do, it doesn’t mean they get published in the journal.

I’ve spoken to Guy Playfair, Mary Rose Barrington and (if my memory serves me) Alan Gauld, who all attended a sitting with Flint at least once. Flint would have probably considered that research.

If you ask Stewart Alexander or the people at Scole, all of them have had visitors doing “research” but it doesn’t mean you will read about it in a journal.

Jon, Sat 12 Aug, 09:14


Thanks for the links and update on the soul phone project.  It is all very interesting, even though the technology goes over my head.  I note that Mark Pitstick says that it will never offer “absolute certainty,” and that 99.9% is the most they can hope for.  My guess is that his 99.9% might be about 1.1% too high, but since I am already at 98.8% without the soul phone I am not motivated to really follow the progress there.  I still say we had compelling evidence before 1920 and everything since then is just icing on the cake.

As for Leslie Flint, I have read his autobiography and listened to several of the tapes, but I have been unable to find any real research by the SPR or other organizations validating his experiences.  He claims to be the “most researched” medium ever, but I’m still looking for that research.

Michael Tymn, Fri 11 Aug, 23:18


I think you hit upon part of the problem that might come with absolute certainty of life after death, but the predominant teachings that come from psychical research do not suggest that we all “wake up” in a joyous world.  We wake up in the world we have designed for ourselves.  Hitler should have awakened in a “fire of the mind” (nightmare) situation, not even realizing he was “dead.”  But those who believe they will wake up in “heavenly” conditions no matter what hardships and adversity they were experiencing in the physical world, are the ones who might prematurely depart the earth realm.

Michael Tymn, Fri 11 Aug, 22:21

Dear Anabela,

What I meant is, from our many conversations, I get the impression you don’t delve into the other forms of mediumship as much as EVP/ITC.
I agree with Mark about Emily French and Stewart Alexander, et al.

Jon, Fri 11 Aug, 20:55

Hello Jon, nice to talk with you here grin

You see, it is not a matter of being interested or not in mediumship (I am interested in every aspect of the survival of consciousness research) but I don’t know enough about it to emit valid opinions. And I truly dislike to speak about subject matters that I do not know enough about.
I am not a scholar of psychical research at all. ITC happened to me, it was not my field. But it is now.


Dr. Anabela Mourato Cardoso, Fri 11 Aug, 18:57

Bruce, thanks for the acronym explanation grin

Do you have a list of successful EVP equipment?

There are no specifications to point out. It does not depend on the equipment. I believe it depends on the communicators and their ability to connect with the Earth operator. As they have stated through Adolf Homes’ computer texts, it is a matter of harmonious liaison between the communicator/s, the Earth operator and his/her equipment. I have experimented with many different types of equipment and obtained results with all the devices I used - computers, tape recorders, mobile ‘phones, radios etc. But there is one importatn point. I normally obtain results not when I aim at them but when I am in a neutral state of mind.
As for Jürgenson, more or less the same thing applies. His most well-known tape recorder was the then famous Uhrer. As for Raudive, to say the truth I don’t know but I’m sure it does not matter.

Anabela Cardoso, Fri 11 Aug, 18:43

Hi Bruce! Interesting comment.
However, I very much doubt that “spirit hackers” might interfere in our world. Firstly, because perhaps there are no spirit hackers in the level from where contacts with our planet originate. In lower levels perhaps but ITC contacts, at least advanced ones, apparently originate in a developed level and they are monitored from a so-called station. We are told that to communicate from a station a strict permission is necessary. And thus, so far, we have no notice of spirit hackers ...

Anabela Cardoso, Fri 11 Aug, 16:55

Bill and Anabela,
I would like an extended chat one day (Zoom?) but rarely travel to USA nowadays. Europe is on the cards again. I deal with hackers and IoT control systems but hadn’t thought about spirit hackers. If the remote viewers or spirits can breach a air gap server that would make the news. My field was critical infrastructure so making systems secure against spirit attack is well above my (retired) pay scale. The Ghost in the Machine would have a new meaning.

Anabela, many of leaders of the spiritualist movement damaged their reputations by going public. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle missed out on higher honors due to his high Spiritualist profile. Our second Prime Minister Alfred Deakin was a spiritualist. He stopped the persecution of mediums as he was previously Attorney General (highest law officer). He also had to keep his opinions from the public. It takes a brave man like Jurgenson to go public. If someone wants to lose friends and get attacked by the press, coming out with a Life after death viewpoint is a great way to achieve it. Everyone comes running to attack.

This blog is where there is acceptance.

Bruce Williams, Fri 11 Aug, 00:26

Personally I think Leslie Flint was one of the most under rated of the later mediums of the 2oth century and I’d put Albert Best in there to. Stewart Alexander one of todays most influential mediums especially for physical mediumship and also direct-voice sat with Leslie Flint and his grandmother came through or at least a message from her which was very evidential information about something she said to him just before her passing and this was only known between Stewart and her. Other excellent contemporary mediums like Gordon Smith and Brian Hurst (who incidentally sat with Leslie on many occasions) also endorse him as the real deal. The debunking of him is weak and naive at best by sceptics who haven’t done the slightest bit of research on the direct-voice and how the process is carried out as there are many complexities to it. There primary focus is to gather as much negative sludge as they can find on a medium and then splatter them with it. I tend to ignore them now as they all seem to work to the same pattern and it gets tiresome and predictable as also seems the case on wikipedia where the bias against Spiritualism is highly prominent with no healthy balancing of solid research (which they seem to believe is non-existent or not worth the time taken to examine) against fraud and trickery.
If you let the tapes speak to you without trying to analyse them to much and not try to write them off after just a few minutes of listening perhaps due to an over sceptical/critical attitude you might find that there is something authentic behind them. I have listened to a lot and I mean hundreds of hours of them and I don’t sense any deceit or trickery in them whatsoever but that is just my opinion and obviously you have to come to your own conclusion.  I believe they are genuine direct-voice as per Emily French, Etta Wriedt, Elizabeth Blake, John Sloan etc., a very rare kind of mediumship, the only difference is that these voices were actually captured on tape for us to hear. One thing I have noted is that some statements/words are similar from different communicators and some are incorrect. Gwen Vaughan who transcripted many of the recordings also noticed this. She discusses it with one of the communicators because she thinks it could lead to suspicion and the validity of the recordings might be jeopardised. The communicator sees her point but doesn’t really offer any solutions but does say the medium himself, being the conduit might unknowingly affect the communication. For instance the word assimulate is used numerous times by different communicators. This word does not actually exist but the word it’s supposed to represent is ‘assimilate’ but they always pronounce it as ‘assimulate’ which is interesting. Also ‘creeds and dogmas’ get mentioned a lot to.

Mark Harrison, Fri 11 Aug, 00:08

Supposing there was absolute assurance, evidence, proof—-what have you, that human consciousness survived death of the body. Just imagine how that would affect humanity!  Would we really want a death “penalty” then that would be sending a criminal to a wonderful existence as reported by NDE-ers; where they would be held in warm loving arms? Would we want children with severe birth defects to continue to suffer for decades on Earth or people with painful illnesses to languish in a hospital bed, sometimes for years.  Maybe people would just get tired of living and want to end it and go on to what they know, based on the evidence,  would be much better. Who would want to stay here when out “yonder” would be so much better?

We need to think about this when we labor to find proof that death is like walking from one room into another. Doubt is the stabilizer, keeping consciousness embodied in a physical existence until its purpose in life has been completed. - AOD

Amos Oliver Doyle, Thu 10 Aug, 18:25

In defence of Flint, It would be interesting to know if the researchers/debunkers ever sat with Flint on a regular basis.

I’ve spent time with Aubrey Rose (see link below) who sat with him for 15 years and has tapes of his sittings. He was prompted to go after his son died in 1976/77 at the age of 21. Someone played him the Judge Birkenhead tape and he was intrigued. After hearing from communicators claiming to be his son and his parents and receiving personal evidence, he persevered and became a regular guest at Flint’s sittings. He subsequently became friends with Flint, set up the foundation to keep the recording in the public sphere, wrote the foreword to his book and read the eulogy at his funeral.

Aubrey is an impressive individual. He was a lawyer and worked in human rights defending the Caribbean community and received an MBE and CBE for his effort. He’s well respected in the Jewish community in the UK and by his peers.

He never suspected Flint of being anything other than genuine and given that there were usually only a few sitters in someone’s house, it’s unlikely that he and the other sitters were fooled during a 50-year period.

Of course we don’t know if all the communicators were who they said they were but when it comes to Flint’s abilities, I’d like to see the evidence that he was not genuine. Personally, having witnessed direct voice on one occasion I would take Aubrey’s word over a researcher/debunker, unless of course they have better evidence to the contrary.

I know Anabela well enough to know she is not that interested in other forms of mediumship, but if you want to know about ITC/EVP, she probably knows as much as anyone, and unlike many researchers, has been doing it for years.

Jon, Thu 10 Aug, 18:12


SoulPhone™ updates here:

So far, I’m more impressed with Marcello Bacci and his radio and the associated group—including one who analyzed the waveforms of the voices—and the Scole Experiment, but who knows what will ultimately arise from the SoulPhone Foundation.

As previously posted, I don’t need “objective proof” for the existence of an afterlife but I may yet get “hands on” with EVP/ITC experimentation.

If so, I will post about it here, assuming you’re still physically embodied (if not, maybe you’ll find some way to continue the blog, nevertheless).

I spent years working in the M2M/IoT technology area, in which machines “speak” with machines, usually for remote monitoring but also for control purposes. It could be dangerous to enable some connections with “spirit”—we definitely don’t want dead hackers messing around with “connected” EVC/ITC.

Meanwhile, the rise of “AI” offers possibilities for improvement in the EVC/ITC area but might easily create confusion, as well.

I’ve previously mentioned John Hays Hammond, Jr., the prolific inventor and radio/electronics pioneer who lived not far from my abode.  His father, at one time the chief mining engineer for the Guggenheims, took him as a lad to meet both Edison and Tesla; later, Hammond was educated at Yale. Hammond tested his wife’s friend Eileen J. Garrett, the Irish medium, in a Faraday cage.

Dead since 1965, Hammond might be a useful contact for EVP/ITC endeavors, even though he would not be able to profit from any patents in his present situation.


Do you ever visit the eastern U.S.?  It would be fun to have an extended in-person conversation.

Hereward Carrington was a complex personality, bridging the era of Spiritualism with what followed. Some of his writings show how long people have been interested in possible crossovers between “Spiritualism” and radio/electronic technologies.

I have an old Blaupunkt radio in need of repair. It would be great if, after repairing it, I could get Andrew Jackson Davis to say a few words that were heard on its speakers, but I’ve already accessed him—or his “shade” or “worldview” depending on whichever terminology is used—without any equipment.

Bill Ingle, Thu 10 Aug, 17:44

hello Bruce, before I reply further, please elucidate me about this sentence in your message :  “... the great leaders who lost reputation such as ACD….”

Who are they? Sorry but right now I don’t know what you’re talking about…


anabela, Thu 10 Aug, 17:32

What are your thoughts about the direct voice recordings of Leslie Flint? - AOD

Hi Amos, I don’t think much about them… I know some people are fascinated by them (as I was when I read the book and listened to some of the recordings), but then there was the debunking by someone, and perhaps more than one researcher, who insisted that they were not genuine. Thus, I really do not know and I don’t like to express my opinion about subjects that I don’t know in depth.
Sorry about this.

anabela, Thu 10 Aug, 17:26

Anabela and Bill,
I came across my old notes (Bill reminded me). In the Journal of Religion and Psychical Research Volume 16 Number 2 April 1993 an article Instrumental Communication with the Dead by Padu Lampe is a complete list (six pages) since 1928 of EVP and ITC research. He was a member of the Metascience Foundation.
Also Hereward Carrington wrote Instrumental Communication with the Spirit World.  This was about Dr J Matla and Dr G Zaalberg of The Hague Holland. Both were physicists. Their work was in Dutch.

Bruce Williams, Thu 10 Aug, 10:41


I think the “soul phone” project that Dr. Gary Schwartz has talked about the last 5 or 6 years involves the advanced equipment you are referring to, but I have heard nothing in recent years as to progress on that project.  I still contend that we will never have absolute certainty as “doubt is the instrument which forges the human spirit” as Victor Hugo was informed. However, we can still move from nihilism and blind faith to true faith or conviction with the evidence we already have. The problem is that few people take the evidence seriously because they don’t really understand it.  It is to that end that this blog is aimed.

Michael Tymn, Thu 10 Aug, 09:47


Regarding your question about EVP/ITC equipment, I am still learning how to work my television monitor and the smart phone my wife insists I carry with me when away from home.  I doubt I will master them before I die.

Michael Tymn, Thu 10 Aug, 09:37


Thanks for your concern, but the devastating fires did not affect the island of Oahu, which is where I live.  We were lucky this time.

Michael Tymn, Thu 10 Aug, 09:32

On a serious note with the fires on Hawaii, we hope that you and your family are safe. We have bushfires most summers with sad outcomes, so please take care.

Bruce Williams, Thu 10 Aug, 01:25

I’ve long been interested in this area.  I was subbed to George Meeks’ MetaScience newsletter in the 1970s and early 1980s and occasionally corresponded with him in that pre-Internet era.

Although I’ve long been “hands on” with forms of more traditional mediumship, I’ve never engaged in active experimentation in EVP/ITC.

Despite this, I’ve often thought there must be a way to refine this, yielding greater quality and consistency.

As far as I know, no one has channeled a Seth-like being, but one who, unlike Seth, was technically adept (Jane Roberts, who channeled Seth, was a poet and writer, not an engineer; Seth didn’t get into technical detail although he alluded to such information in a few places) who might provide relevant information and guidance.

People have accessed discarnate personalities, technically proficient in life, but what has resulted?

There are some deep issues here and many unanswered questions.

Physical devices supposedly operate in accordance with “laws” of electromagnetism, etc.  How is it that those no longer physically embodied can impress thoughts on such devices (and related components like old fashioned magnetic tape or even using old CRT TV technology, let alone the “wireless telegraphy” we know as “radio”)?

As temporarily physically embodied beings we are connected, inwardly, to the environment created by those no longer physically embodied (and those who creat it)—you could say there is an “interface”—but how are we connected, exactly?  What is the exact nature of any such interface? 

Those who claim to know are rarely conversant with those realms of knowledge that include electronics, electromagnetism, etc. (how many physicists or communication engineers dabble in mediumship or channeling, or acknowledge a familiarity with “subtle bodies,” “chakras,” etc.?).

Once, through a skilled medium, I successfully contacted Ken Olsen, founder of Digital Equipment Corporation, and asked him about this. (I   encountered Olsen once, obviously prior to his death, at a press conference.)

It was an interesting “conversation.” Olsen had long been interested in communication with the deceased but had kept this to himself—this was not a “suitable” topic within his professional or church circles.

He said he thought that creating a superior kind of equipment was possible but suggested “venture capital” would be required—it would be costly.

Bill Ingle, Wed 9 Aug, 19:05

Dear all,
Did anyone think about the implications when I mentioned the Panasonic digital tape recorder RR-DR60 (tape recorder of choice for ghost hunters) getting EVPs.

My thoughts (if it was true) are that the spirits heard about these successful EVPs with this model of tape recorder, so the word went out in Spirit World. “See if someone you know has this model” (I wonder if ” ” are used in the spirit world).

Microphones come in four types
Dynamic Microphones.
Large Diaphram Condensor Microphones.
Small Diaphram Condensor Microphones.
Ribbon Microphones.

We used to look at their sensitivity to certain frequencies

Anabela, I understand that your focus is on the caliber of Jurgenson (I follow the great leaders who lost reputation such as ACD) but was there any specifications of equipment which worked to capture EVPs?

When the buzz went around the amateur radio world in late 1960s (they recorded their radio contacts by tape and sent a postcard sized QSL confirmation having date and time - but not much was known about the specifications of Jurgensons/Raudive setup.

Do you have a list of successful EVP equipment?
Putting on my marketing hat - book sales followed by product sales. (I am joking but still an opportunity).

Bruce Williams, Wed 9 Aug, 10:10

What are your thoughts about the direct voice recordings of Leslie Flint? - AOD

Amos Oliver Doyle, Tue 8 Aug, 18:03

Hi again, Bruce.

“At which point did you believe in the after life from the EVPs?”
A difficult question…
Still, I think my certainty about life after death came when I got a comprehensive view of the survival of physical death studies and their many manifestations. Not only the EVPs and ITC voices, although those are of course objective and the most striking.

anabela cardoso, Tue 8 Aug, 14:35

Your link has the sound recordings of Jurgenson. Very interesting. At which point did you believe in the after life from the EVPs?

My brother and I were caught up with the release of Breakthrough as we had reel to reel tape recorders and a variety of high quality microphones. The signal to noise ratios were better. This is the background:
Raudive found Jurgenson’s small book shortly after publication in 1964 and the two began work together in 1965, culminating with the publication of Breakthrough. Raudive, with Jurgenson’s aid, experimented with tape recorders, microphones, and radio, documenting their work in great detail, with Raudive pondering its implications for humanity.

Side A:

Side B:

The paranormal shows use a grading system, A Class A EVP is a clear message. It was a discussion/urban myth that the Panasonic digital tape recorder RR-DR60 (tape recorder of choice for ghost hunters) was recalled due to unexplained voices. They put in more RF shielding.

Bruce Williams, Tue 8 Aug, 08:11

Hi Bruce, thanks for your comments.

I have Meek’s book and I agree with you.
By the way, Meek was in Luxembourg at the Harsch-Fischbach with Professor Senkowski and witnessed some of their extraordinary communications. It is reported in Prof Senkowski’s major work, Instrumentelle TransKommunikation (in German).
“It will reduce the doctrine of the immortality of the human spirit to certainty.”
It is not a doctrine of immortality, it is the Natural Law.
The communicators do not speak of the survival of human consciousness. They tell us, through the most advanced contacts received on the earth, that all consciousnesses survive death. In a way it is like being here - we are all here, plants, animals, humans, minerals. Obviously all there, too…
Take care.

Anabela Cardoso, Mon 7 Aug, 17:07

I like the sound of your book. I looked up a reference which might be of interest.
George Meek After We Die What Then (1980) - not high on my list of great resources. It has on page 172 a detailed discussion on EVP and in summary:
49 I have read that Friedrich Jurgensen in Sweden, Constantine Raudiv in Germany etc have recorded words spoken by persons known to be dead. Is there any truth in these reports Yes. Long discussion.
Next section (50) was Edison etc
The next discussion was about the benefits of communication - Love to God and your fellows.
In New York in 1935 a spirit named William Brandon used the automatic writing ability of Edith Ellis to write a book (Open the Door) for the specific purposes of trying to raise money to finance research aimed at a communication system. You are not fools. You are within a short distance of two extremes - annihilation or illumination.

I tried to look up this section but the 1987 version on Internet Archive did not have these sections but Jurgensen information is on page 148

It will reduce the doctrine of the immortality of the human spirit to certainty.

Bruce Williams, Mon 7 Aug, 05:10

About the quality of the voices, I must explain that
1.  These were the first significant voices recorded on the earth. There were other voices previously recorded (see the voice of Father Dr Gemelli’s dead father in 1952 (pp. 189-190), and reports by Attila von Szalay and Raymond Bayless of ‘spirit voices’, p. 11). However, neither reached very far… Friedrich Jürgenson knew nothing about any of them and he was the person who made the new way known in the world. All this to say that being the first ones, it is understandable that the voices are less clear (but not all!) or perhaps even less articulate than, for instance, the voices I receive.
2.  There is also the very good explanation given by FJ to Rune Moberg, “The dead have not the same kind of consciousness as we do, and not the same conceptual realm. What we think is pointless can have a deep meaning for them”. I can certify to this because I have examples of voices that, to us, would seem puerile, but perhaps they are nothing of the sort… I once asked my communicators “Do you say what you wish to say or do you say what you think?” Their clear reply was “We say all that we think”. If we consider that previously, they had told me that “we hear [their] thoughts” when I commented on the constant voices in the background interacting with each other, which can sometimes be heard, it makes sense.
3.  Also, the first ever voices from another dimension recorded in a consistent way, should naturally be very hard to produce. “The manipulation of the radio waves through thought”, as I was told, must be an extremely difficult task.
4.  But I insist that this is not a book about EVP or ITC. It is a book about Friedrich Jürgenson. Thus, the quality of the voices is not so relevant as it is in today’s ITC voices.
5.  And of those we have the greatest examples – Maggy and Jules Harsch-Fischbach in Luxembourg and Adolf Homes in Germany (see my paper: and examples of my own voices at:
Thanks again for your interest.

Anabela Cardoso, Sun 6 Aug, 18:23

I was very pleased to read the comments about my and Anders Leopold’s new book. Among the comments so far published, I particularly thank Mike Tymn, Stafford Betty and Mark E Newbold because they seem to have fully understood the aim of this book, which is “a better understanding of Jürgenson’s life and groundbreaking work in EVP”.
Indeed, this is not a book on EVP; it is a book about an exceptional man who revolutionized the way the so-called dead communicate with our dimension. In the process, he jeopardized his brilliant career and his personal life.
Of course I know (but F. J. didn’t) that there were predecessors in this new way of communicating, but they were ignored until Jürgenson revealed the existence of the new method to the world. 
There are many books on EVP/ITC (my own included) but this is not the point here. Not even the quality of the voices.
I will return to this discussion as soon as I possibly can. Thanks all!

Anabela Cardoso, Sun 6 Aug, 17:10

Thanks for the fact check. I stand corrected. I was looking for the actual script but decided to save time with a search
Mrs Holland’s ‘Gurney’ was quite tough with her.

‘... If you don’t care enough to try every day for a short time, better drop it altogether. It’s like making appointments and not keeping them. You endanger your own, powers of sensitiveness and annoy us bitterly - G.’

Her ‘Myers’, on the other hand, was gentle but sad.

‘The nearest simile I can find to express the difficulties of sending a message is that I appear to be standing behind a sheet of frosted glass - which blurs sight and deadens sound - dictating feebly - to a reluctant and somewhat obtuse secretary. A feeling of terrible impotence burdens me ...’

This sort of lament was repeated again and again.

‘Oh, if I could only get to them - could only leave you the proof positive that I remember - recall - know - continue.’
The quality of scripts from medium was the point that I was making with EVP. The proof positive of life after death may be a communication technique yet to be developed. My bet is on telepathy.

Bruce Williams, Sun 6 Aug, 01:31


Nice quote about the “reluctant and somewhat obtuse secretary.” I believe however, that it was from Myers (rather than Gurney)...who added something to the effect that the communication was attempted through a pane of opaque and frosted glass. (I’d try to locate it for you but my head is still in process of awakening…)

Don Porteous, Sat 5 Aug, 12:05

Dear all,
I always love articles on communication techniques. I watch and listen to various ghost hunter programs/podcasts for entertainment. I like the EMF meters, REM pods and spirit boxes. My brother and I when we were young (15-17) set up EVP recorders with no success. We had access to amateur radio technology from our family - disembodied voices from around the world.
The Spirit Telephone of Edison impressed me. He used mediums to attract interactions as one of his employees was a medium.
My electrical engineering training looks for such communication, repeatable and reliable. Electrical in nature. My medium training looks at these attempts as just people stumbling in the dark.

Edmund Gurney (when he was transmitting from the After Life) used the term for a medium as dictating feebly to a reluctant and somewhat obtuse secretary. The results from EVPs make that secretary hard to replace.

Bruce Williams, Sat 5 Aug, 01:20

I see no reason why a medium—meaning, in this case, an unusually sensitive person who serves as a “thin space”—cannot ply his or her trade through an electronic device. But I doubt that an electronic device itself can be any more mediumistic than a ouija board.

Newton Finn, Fri 4 Aug, 14:19

I hope to reread Jurgenson’s 1981 book, which is hidden somewhere in my library in an attempt to reconcile all the gibberish with the comments in the book, such as that by Monica Jurgenson on page 228, where she states: “The fact that we had contact with many family members and numerous friends among the so-called dead, who after their death have participated in our lives with practical information and psychological advice, is the proof not only that these people live but also that their specific individuality is intact after physical death.”  I don’t understand why such communication was not made part of the book.  I also hope to further discuss this by email with Anabela Cardoso and do a future blog on it.

Michael Tymn, Thu 3 Aug, 23:05

I think I might have got confused with the terms EVP and ITC in my last post. I was referring to EVP where sounds are heard over radio static as being unconvincing to my ears but the newer term of ITC seems to be an umbrella term for communication through different kinds of electronic devices including telephones, tv’s, fax machines etc., which I wasn’t fully aware of. There’s some more info on it here if anyone’s interested. Please note that the site is showing ‘Not secure’ in the header but it seems ok for me as long as I don’t enter any personal info. The link was taken from here

Mark Harrison, Thu 3 Aug, 22:09

I’ve heard very little to do with EVP/ITC but the snippets of recordings I have heard left me feeling slightly unimpressed and dubious as it was mostly garbled and incoherent as well as having no fluidity or cohesion. I would have to do much more research into that area in order to get a broader picture of what if anything is going on.
What puzzles me if according to the Rev. David Kennedy in his book ‘A venture in immortality’ the medium Albert best can apparently contact him by telephone from the other side in order to pass on information from his wife to him which contains very verifiable information. This in a way as if you were talking on the phone to someone here in this earth reality. So if we take the word of the Rev. David Kennedy as an honest representation of what happened then why can’t they contact us by this means on a more regular basis? I have heard more instances of this type of communication from the other side by using a phone in numerous recollections of after death communications (ADC’s) so it seems it’s certainly not a one off experience. If indeed they can do this then is it difficult or can it be achieved quite easily? For myself it’s past the mind boggle threshold again and I can’t see how someone in the afterlife can dial someone’s number and get the phone to ring on our side of life. So surely you would favour the clearer line of a telephone rather than the static scratchy and incoherent sounds that are present on EVP recordings (at least the ones I’ve listened to).
Oliver Lodge mentions on the Leslie Flint recordings that progress was being made in achieving a better way of communication and this was on both sides. He particularly mentions progress being made in Russia at that time and that a major breakthrough will come while trying to discover something else but so far over 50 years later there seems to be no evidence of any sign of it. He does mention that he thinks there will always have to be some kind of human involvement either in a mediumistic sense or some other form.
I can’t understand why there seems to be very little progress in the direct-voice kind of mediumship certainly since Leslie Flint was on the scene but perhaps there is more going on behind the scenes in various circles around the world than we imagine. I would be very interested in an update from scientists on the other side like Richet, Lodge, Myers, Crookes et al. as to where we are in relation to communication as surely we should have made much headway by now but we hear nothing.
Like I say I’m not writing off the EVP/ITC as a non-starter but something just doesn’t add up.

Mark Harrison, Thu 3 Aug, 13:23

Why the strange, sometimes incomprehensible language? On March 11, 1998, Cardoso received her first direct-voice communication (not using a tape recorder) from one of the voices belonging to the group she had been working with. This is what the voice clearly and loudly said, in a literal, word-for-word translation from the Portuguese:
“We are listening to everything. We want to know about the world. We want to hear your things. Now we are going to count on you, to offer what is just! I was not the one who spoke, but suppose you have made a question! This is very difficult! Another world!”

She goes on to explain that the technology, both on their and our sides, is still primitive in its execution. Make of it what you will, but Cardoso herself has no doubt the voices come from an unearthly source. After researching ITV for one of my books, I have no doubt either.

Stafford Betty, Wed 2 Aug, 22:07

An astute review. Freidel’s conversations…by Cardoso and Leopold is a fine contribution to a better understanding of Jurgenson’s life and groundbreaking work in EVP.

Mark E Newbold, Tue 1 Aug, 19:19

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An Evolutionary Bifurcation: Transcendence or Transhumanism? by David Lorimer – In 2023, the world is a very different place compared with 2010, when I wrote the introduction you can read below, but looking at the contents of this volume, I can’t help feeling that the need for a new renaissance is more significant than ever at a time of rising divisions, intensifying polarities, intolerance of other viewpoints, increasing narrative control and censorship, and the relentless rise of technocracy as social engineering employing behavioural psychology techniques such as ‘nudging’ and fear mongering in order to shape our perception and behaviour. Read here
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